Maybe it would help if we could find a standardized subject title if the content is core dependent (questions, libraries, solutions or code …) in the common sections (general discussion, Libraries & Hardware (this section is Libmaple only) , Projects , Ideas & suggestions, Code snipplets …)
I have done it – for example – here:
viewtopic.php?f=18&p=49076#p49076
[HAL F4]: I2S with DMA circular buffer
So my suggestions are something like this:
[Libmaple] – <topic title>
[STMcore] – <topic title>
[GenericCore] – <topic title>
[CubeMX_HAL] – <topic title>
[HAL] – <topic title> (=both: STMcore + genericCore)
Maybe it could be more specific:
[GenericCore – F4] or
[STMcore – Nucleo F103RB]
We might get away with using a few more headings in the menu. Perhaps expand this lot.
- Headings.jpg (57.19 KiB) Viewed 288 times
[edogaldo – Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:43 pm] –
I think the problem is that several newbies don’t know there are different cores and which one they are using and some don’t even know they are using a core..
Well, as we say in the Southern States here in the USA, “Hell yes, that is the problem!”
But for months there has been a Newbie Intro here: http://stm32duino.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3111
I refer all newcomers to the above link. Maybe it can be expanded it needed, maybe it is fine as stands. All admins have access: feel free. Steve and I have shared one or two PM’s in the past to change the wording or add new phrasing.
But the true problem is that many newbies do not understand what they read. This was the ‘great issue’ that Roger and I talked about many years ago in a bunch of ping-pong emails… non-Arduino background newbies would want to use the STM32F1xx as their first microcontroller. Our forum is not set-up for members that have a bare minimum of experience. It is a great strain on knowledgable resources and I burned-out many months ago on answering questions that can be found using “google search.”
Everyone just wants everything. It is not possible. Just keeping up with the Arduino IDE versions and break/fix for the F103 is a formadable job. The STM corporate core is growing across a wide range of architectures. The inherited LibMaple core is mature, but not perfect. But new members are coming in with the wants of custom installations, various IDE support, and weird (to me) requests for such things as composite-USB serial drivers. Such things are not easily supportable. If users come in with knowledge of “how-I-did-it…” then that is great and maybe another user or two will evolve that scenerio; but coming in with a non-standard need is driving many of our more knowledgable admins off to research and concoct procedures… that keep them away for other new users that need more assistance.
We have seen the enemy and he is us.
Ray
Cores = main group with following subgroups
[Libmaple]
[STMcore] (bugs and features in subgroups)
[GenericCore]
[stm8]
Each subgroup with its own next level subgroups of: F1, F4, (+other Fx where applicable)
Libraries
Bootloaders main group, parallel to Cores.
[DFU] (stm32duino 2.0
[HID]
IDEs (Arduino, Eclipse, Sloeber,…)
Boards (for problems with “not starting oscillator”…, development/tuning)
Projects
…
I am not sure where Projects and code snippets should go (do we need them both? Because code snippets are mostly part of a project…). Although they are mostly core and board dependent, but they could still be of general interest, independent from core and hardware.
[stevestrong – Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:59 am] –
I agree we need a better structure, something like:Cores = main group with following subgroups
[Libmaple] [STMcore] (bugs and features in subgroups)
[GenericCore] [stm8] Each subgroup with its own next level subgroups of: F1, F4, (+other Fx where applicable)Libraries
Bootloaders main group, parallel to Cores.
[DFU] (stm32duino 2.0
[HID]IDEs (Arduino, Eclipse, Sloeber,…)
Boards (for problems with “not starting oscillator”…, development/tuning)Projects
…I am not sure where Projects and code snippets should go (do we need them both? Because code snippets are mostly part of a project…). Although they are mostly core and board dependent, but they could still be of general interest, independent from core and hardware.
Last point is easy, just a common – core independent – “Project / Code snippets” (maybe a better phrase for it). As you said: Projects are a “whole thing” (specific board/core/hardware…) and code snippets are mostly core independent.
I’m not sure about the STMcore (SC) and GenericCore (GC), because the GC seems to be a little graveyard at the moment, Daniel is absent for a while. Both Cores are based on the same Layer (CMSIS/HAL) but have a total different structure. At the moment GC is far advanced over SC, but this might be changing in near future. So what I do is developing HAL/CMSIS code which is independent of GC/SC. But (to stay on topic): Where should I post such code -> SC or GC? 
Suggestion: Libmaple Core and STMcore with full categories and for the “rest” just one common section?
but perhaps traffic in those ‘sub forums’ are ‘deserted’ and it just seemed ‘general discussion’ is right there on top and more popular
everybody come in here to roost, and of course newbies would storm ‘general discussion’ as this may be all they understand
i’m thinking if the ‘cores’ section is moved nearer the ‘top’ it may encourage more users to use the sub-forums specific to the core
Maybe it would make sense (I don’t know if doable) to automatically send an email with the content of the Ray’s welcome post automatically sent to the freshly registered user when allowing access to the forum.
srp
[stevestrong – Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:32 pm] –
Maybe it would make sense (I don’t know if doable) to automatically send an email with the content of the Ray’s welcome post automatically sent to the freshly registered user when allowing access to the forum.
Probably won’t work. There is already a problem with validation emails being marked as spam, I think this would be worse as it would include links
I am also not sure if anyone would read the email even if it they received it.
1. How to get “newbies” to post into the right section with enough information to help out. (core, board…) Many newbies installed the core the easy way: With the board manager, so they installed the STMcore and are looking forward to this forum trying out examples, projects, libraries or codes. Now the “but”: Most of them in those sections are written for the libmaple one (but not all, I know). So I’ll going to overthink the welcome message and how to get the new users sensitive about the different cores (To be honest: In AVR or Arduino original board land no user must think about different cores. Even with ESP8266 it’s easy: There is a one and only ESP8266 core. Install it or you are wont be able to choose a ESP board, but “we” have at least 3 active cores for the same processor (family/boards)). I’m going to find some suggestions, but this needs time (and a lector, because English isn’t my native language)
A little number says a lot about the dilemma: 41. (this is the number of “real” newbies only in August, sorry I know: just one member more and it would sounds like more pathetic
).2. How we should restructure the whole forum. Many of us “old” members did suggestions to Roger a long time ago and this is how the forum looks today (with some additions), but in the past we dealt with only one core: Rogers (libmaple) core. So “we” share the forum at least(!) with the STMcore. So this was my suggestion: Rogers (libmaple) core with subcategories and STMcore with (the same) subcategories and a “common” section.
I’m going further:
- I do not really see the point using the “Boards” section anymore (in the past it was really useful). It isn’t really used today and not really specified (hardware only? core?…)
- “Bootloaders” maybe be better into “UPLOADERS AND DEBUGGERS”
- “LIBRARIES AND HARDWARE” into the subcategories of each core.
It would be my suggestion that Frederic Pillon make the decisions for STM. It may be that he has a different opinion on the structure.
Good luck with newbies reading (and understanding) the preliminary introduction. I’m fairly certain that a small percentage of members honestly do not know what a “core” really means. They just know that they have read that the “blue pill” is Arduino compatible and costs around $2 USD.
Then there is the Arduino IDE “thing” and it ships with many Arduino boards pre-loaded… using a UNO just works.
Ray
hence for posts that’s asking for help and if the details is not clear, i’d (sometimes) just ignore them
i’d think even for ‘newbies’ we can request that if it is a post asking for help to provide the details like:
– board
– core
– ide
– host (win/linux/mac)
etc, less may be needed depends on context
as related to the particular issue / problem
if the user is clueless, i’d think we’d simply point them to the wikis and relevant forum threads etc so that they go ahead to do more fact finding beforehand
but for the general posts, i think i made an assumption that it is libmaple and the board is bp/mm unless proven otherwise or that the poster state so in the details
[madias – Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:02 pm] –
I’m going further:
- I do not really see the point using the “Boards” section anymore (in the past it was really useful). It isn’t really used today and not really specified (hardware only? core?…)
- “Bootloaders” maybe be better into “UPLOADERS AND DEBUGGERS”
- “LIBRARIES AND HARDWARE” into the subcategories of each core.
the ‘boards’ section is actually useful as they collect issues / features as is relevant to the particular boards and socs
(i assume that it is bp/mm default if not stated)
things are a little ‘complex’ as here we have many different boards with 3 different cores, so you could literally draw up a matrix and draw up the cross-tab for each relevant permutation
and bootloaders is normally libmaple (do generic use it?) and stm32f103. as stm32f4 has its own DFU and STM’s own boards uses an st-link on board
literally the permutations is mind boggling
i’m thinking in the boards section it may help to prefix the core in the subject for core specific issue as some of the issues may after all be relevant to the board / soc
then in the cores section, if it is an issue specific to a particular board, it may help to prefix the board in particular for stm they have a variety of boards
), so maybe the section ” UPLOADERS AND DEBUGGERS” may be better named as “UPLOADING AND DEBUGGERS” . Maybe the “board” section should be a little more hardware related and core independent
@steve: I’m with you: At very first it should be a better community platform for “us” and ag123 is right: The board is not a official ST support forum, but that does not exclude helping beginners.
to an extent boot loaders , at least the stm32duino libmaple bootloader is a little different from debuggers (e.g. st-link etc)
in a sense the stm32duino boot loader is ‘part of the core’ the reason being that this is the defacto sketch upload means for libmaple core for stm32f103 and the ‘full setup’ is pretty much designed around that, i.e. stm32duino bootloader + libmaple core
i think for the stm’s own boards, as quite a number of stm’s boards bundles an on board st-link, and to some extent in part due to the use of st-link, usb isn’t featured as a ‘main stem’ in the core, to some extent they are ‘quite independent of usb’. while libmaple core is ‘based around usb’. i preferred libmaple’s setup, usb-serial provides a ‘standard’ connectivity to the board from pc and we are extending it into more usb device use cases (e.g. hid)
debuggers is different as if you consider st-link, the swd dongles, black magic probes etc and that their association is with openocd, swd debugging etc
so do other ‘uploaders’ mainly they are usb to serial adapters
they have a section on their own there today
